How Can NY Protect Immigrants From Trump?

The Trump Administration has stoked widespread fear in immigrant communities across New York and around the country. Through immigration raids, and a non-stop barrage of anti-immigrant policies, Trump’s plans to tear families apart and launch the largest mass deportations in U.S. history are well underway.

There’s no sugarcoating how bad the current situation is. But we should also understand that there’s a lot New York lawmakers can do to protect our immigrant neighbors. On this episode, we discuss what policies need to be put in place at the state level to help safeguard communities from Trump’s deportation dragnet. And we dig into why Trump’s mass deportations will ultimately hurt all New Yorkers.

We also get a sense of how people in immigrant communities are feeling by talking to an immigrant New Yorker about her experience.

Please download, share, rate, and review Rights This Way. It will help more people find this podcast.

Resources:

Podcast: The Case for Open Borders

New York for All

Dignity Not Detention

How New Yorkers Can Defend Against Trump’s Mass Deportations

Get Involved: Volunteer

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Simon: The Trump administration has stoked widespread fear in immigrant communities across New York and around the country. Through immigration raids and a non stop barrage of anti immigrant policies, Trump’s plans to tear families apart and launch the largest mass deportations in U. S. history are well underway.

[00:00:18] Simon: There’s no sugarcoating how bad the current situation is. But we should also understand that there’s a lot New York lawmakers can do to protect our immigrant neighbors. On this episode, we’ll discuss what policies need to be put in place at the state level to help safeguard communities from Trump’s deportation dragnet.

[00:00:36] Simon: And we’ll get into why Trump’s mass deportation will ultimately hurt all New Yorkers. Finally, we’ll get a sense of how people in immigrant communities are feeling, by talking to an immigrant New Yorker about her experience. We’ll get into all of this in just a moment. But first, I’d like to ask you to please download, share, rate, and review Rights This Way.

[00:00:58] Simon: It will help more people find this podcast. Welcome to Rights This Way, a podcast from the New York Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU of New York State. I’m Simon McCormack, Senior Staff Writer at the NYCLU and your host for this podcast, which is focused on the civil rights and liberties issues that impact New Yorkers most.

[00:01:25] Simon: And now I’m joined by two guests. Zachary Ahmad is an NYCLU Senior Policy Counsel, and Irma Solis is the NYCLU Suffolk Regional Office Director. Zach, Irma, welcome to Rights This Way.

[00:01:40] Irma: Nice to be here.

[00:01:41] Zach: Thank you so much for having us.

[00:01:42] Simon: Of course. I’ll start off right now just with you, Irma. I’m just wondering if you can give us a broad temperature check on what you’re hearing from immigrant rights advocates and community members that you’ve talked to since Trump’s election, and now that he’s in office, what are you hearing?

[00:02:04] Irma: Yeah, I’ve been receiving nonstop calls from members of our immigrant communities asking what they can do to protect themselves and their children. And also asking us what they can do to help inform others of their rights, which I think says a lot about members of the immigrant community.

[00:02:22] Irma: And also calls from teachers, social workers, and counselors asking what they can do to protect their students and their families. I’ve also gotten calls from our members asking what they can do. How can they get involved and help? And I’m not surprised, but I hadn’t received calls like these before. I received calls from residents from Suffolk County,

[00:02:45] Irma: asking what they can do to, how they can support their neighbors, what they can do to support them. And I recently provided a Know Your Rights training to 280 ENL students, who are learning English as a new language. And one of them, his question just stuck with me. And he first shared that he was born here.

[00:03:04] Irma: He was born in this country and asked if he could also be taken away by ICE if ICE came to his house. Yeah, those are some of the questions I’m getting, and the level of fear is so heightened at this point.

[00:03:18] Simon: Yeah, thank you for that, Irma. I think that is, it’s not surprising, but it’s upsetting to hear.

[00:03:24] Simon: And with that as the background, Zach, I want to talk to you about how New York state lawmakers can help lessen some of the concerns that we’ve heard Irma just mention. One of the things the Trump administration is doing is he’s, you know, they’re enlisting local law enforcement agencies to help them carry out the deportation agenda.

[00:03:47] Simon: Can you talk to us about what’s called the New York for All Act? What it is and what it would do?

[00:03:55] Zach: Sure. So the New York for All Act is a piece of state legislation that would disentangle our state and local governments from immigration enforcement. As you noted, ICE does conduct raids on their own and they do conduct their own enforcement actions, but they don’t like to do it all on their own.

[00:04:12] Zach: They like to leech off the resources that states and localities have by trying to enlist local law enforcement to help them carry out their agenda, which is really not the job of our local agencies, and not what our local law enforcement are supposed to do. They’re supposed to be serving our communities here in New York.

[00:04:29] Zach: So this bill, in a number of different ways, would prohibit government employees throughout New York from using their resources, such as their time on duty, to assist with immigration authorities and collude with ICE, ensuring that our local government is serving our communities and not doing the job of the federal government, which again, they are not required to do.

[00:04:48] Zach: Some people might recognize these as sanctuary laws. I personally call them disentanglement laws because I think that’s a bit more descriptive. But this is not a new idea. California, Washington State, Oregon, Illinois have all passed equivalent laws in their states. New Jersey has also done the same thing by a slightly different mechanism.

[00:05:08] Zach: And those states did so years ago. But in New York, we have never had a comprehensive statewide law or policy on how local law enforcement or other officials can engage in immigration enforcement. I think it’s sometimes a misconception that we do have those laws, but in fact, we have nothing that applies across the board.

[00:05:26] Zach: But we do have some local laws in New York City and Westchester County. There are a few places in the state that might have some non binding policies in place. There are some limited restrictions on certain state employees, but really nothing like what you find in these other states. It is high time that New York gets on board and passes the New York for All Act.

[00:05:46] Zach: This bill has been around for years and the legislature really needs to get going and pass this as we adjust to this new world we’re living in.

[00:05:54] Simon: Yeah, and folks, few people know more how long New York for All has been around than Zach, who has been working on it for years. Irma, I want to talk to you about how New York for All might help the people that you’re hearing from who are worried about Trump’s deportation plans and, as you said, are looking for ways to protect themselves.

[00:06:13] Irma: Yeah, New York for All is, as I’m having conversations with folks in the community about this bill, they share how if this, a New York for All passed, they would feel a lot more comfortable reaching out for emergency cases to 911 because some of them have said the way the situation is right now, I’m not comfortable calling 911 because that could mean a police officer showing up, and for some, they would not trust, right, that the police would not be sharing any information they get during any interaction with them.

[00:06:56] Irma: And also, feeling comfortable going to a public hospital, right?

[00:07:02] Simon: Yeah, no, absolutely. And it’s so many different strands and different facets of daily life that New York for All would really touch. And Trump has already implemented parts of his anti immigrant agenda, but for him to be able to deport, he’s talked about deporting millions of people, and he will need a lot of space to detain immigrants before they are deported.

[00:07:26] Simon: Right now, ICE has around 42, 000 beds under current congressional funding. That’s not nearly enough to detain and deport millions of people. So, the administration will likely heavily rely on renting space inside local jails to house people that officials want to deport. Zach, with that little bit of background, can you talk about what legislators can do to make sure New York doesn’t play a part in this hunt for space to detain people?

[00:07:55] Zach: Yeah, absolutely. And just to expand a little bit by way of background, so when ICE puts people in detention facilities, as you noted, they’re very often not using their own facilities to do. They rely on a combination of federally owned immigration prisons, private prisons, and local jails that they have contracts with.

[00:08:14] Zach: So county jails across the country that exist to hold people charged with crimes have financial agreements with ICE where they can rent out their empty cell space to hold people who are charged with civil violations of immigration law. And the fact that we detain thousands of people for civil immigration purposes is itself a moral stain on our country.

[00:08:36] Zach: And the fact that New York participates in this is really an indictment on our state and local institutions. There are at least three jails in New York that we know of that actively contract with ICE in this way. And there are many others that we suspect are standing at the ready, if and when the Trump administration starts to look

[00:08:55] Zach: for more detention space and tries to enter into more of these contracts or activate contracts that might have been dormant for years. Fortunately, we do not have any privately owned immigration detention facilities in the state at the moment, but that is something that could change and we don’t want any more of it.

[00:09:12] Zach: And the state can do something about that. There is a bill pending in the state legislature alongside the New York For All Act. It is called the Dignity Not Detention Act. And this would ban these contracts between local jails and ICE to rent out detention space. And it would also prohibit any private immigration detention facilities from opening and operating

[00:09:32] Zach: within the state. This bill would not end immigration detention entirely, but it would eliminate New York’s direct role in enabling that system to exist here in our state. Like New York for All, this is something that other states have done. And once again, the time for New York to act is past due.

[00:09:50] Simon: And along those same lines, Trump’s mass deportation plans mean that many more people will inevitably be facing the prospect of deportation in immigration court. And people in removal proceedings, they do have a right to an attorney, but unlike in criminal court, they’re not appointed a lawyer if they can’t afford one. Zach, can you talk about the importance of a person having a lawyer in immigration court, and also how New York can make sure that those facing deportation, that they do have counsel by their side?

[00:10:25] Zach: Sure. I want to underscore just how perverse it is that people in immigration court are not provided with lawyers when they can’t afford one, like they are in criminal proceedings. And of course, many people in that situation cannot afford to pay for their own lawyer. That can cost thousands and thousands of dollars that many people in that situation simply do not have.

[00:10:45] Zach: Deportation for many people is literally a matter of life or death. Deportation can be a death sentence, effectively, for some people. Many people who have fled violence or political persecution in their home countries are facing threats to their lives and their families if they are sent back. And immigration law is extraordinarily complex for everyone, and especially for people who maybe have come to this country and are not familiar with our legal institutions, may have limitations in terms of language.

[00:11:16] Zach: It is truly insane to expect people to navigate immigration court on their own without an attorney by their side, and unsurprisingly immigrants are more than 10 times more likely to win their cases in immigration court when they have a lawyer to represent them, which makes perfect sense. The good news is that New York has for years provided dedicated funding for people in immigration removal proceedings, both at the state and local level, in order to access counsel.

[00:11:44] Zach: That actually began more than 10 years ago in New York City with the creation of the New York Immigrant Family Unity Project. Some people might know that as Knife Up, the shorthand. That program was the first of its kind to fund removal defense in that way at the local level, and it’s now been replicated

[00:12:01] Zach: in many other places. And for several years now, we’ve had state funding as well that has helped fill the gap and helped people in New York obtain representation. But here’s where New York really has a chance to lead again by passing another bill, which is the Access to Representation Act. This is a bill that would create a guarantee or a right to funding for counsel for New Yorkers who are in removal proceedings in order to fight their cases and to pursue related cases that are directly related to their efforts to fight their deportation proceedings.

[00:12:35] Zach: It would essentially make permanent some of the funding commitments that have been made in prior years and really provide consistency and a guarantee for people and help make sure that New York is continuing to lead the way as they have in the past when it comes to providing attorneys for people who are in immigration proceedings.

[00:12:53] Zach: There are lots of tools that our state officials have, we just need them to use them.

[00:12:58] Simon: Yeah, absolutely. And I want to talk about one more tool, one more piece of policy, and that is the Clemency Justice Act. Zach, can you tell us what that is, what that would do?

[00:13:11] Zach: So one of the most immediately impactful things that can be done for immigrants at the state level is to grant clemency to people who have been convicted of crimes, who are facing deportation or tried to adjust their status.

[00:13:25] Zach: And when I say clemency, I’m referring to pardons and commutations. The governor is empowered by our state constitution to reduce sentences or remove the consequences of criminal convictions for people who have demonstrated rehabilitation or remorse or for other reasons. That can be extremely important for immigrants in particular. Criminal convictions, even for low level offenses, can be a major barrier for people who are either fighting a deportation case, or trying to adjust their status, or obtain a lawful permanent status or citizenship. Federal law does contemplate that a grant of clemency by a governor can remove immigration consequences of conviction in certain circumstances. We would like to see Governor Hochul make more robust use of the clemency power that she has to benefit immigrant New Yorkers in particular.

[00:14:17] Zach: But there’s also a bill, as you mentioned, called the Clemency Justice Act, which would create a more accessible and equitable clemency application process. It would give people more guidance on how to apply and more information on the status of their applications as they are pending. But perhaps most critically, it would allow people who have an urgent need for a clemency, such as a pending deportation proceeding, to note that in their applications. And then they would be entitled to a decision on that application within 90 days of an expedited process.

[00:14:51] Zach: It wouldn’t require the governor to grant clemency to anyone that remains in her discretion, but it would give more access and clarity on the process for people who are in limbo. We’re passing, we’re calling on the legislature to pass that bill as well. All the bills that we’ve been talking about today really like work together to support immigrant communities and mitigate some of the harms that we’re unfortunately already starting to see from this new administration.

[00:15:18] Zach: And it is really important that the legislature not stand by the way that they have in prior years, frankly, and meet the moment that we’re in.

[00:15:26] Simon: Yeah, absolutely. And we’ve talked a lot about the harms Trump’s actions are having and will continue to have in immigrant communities, but I do want to make sure that people listening understand this will have an impact on all of us, on all New York residents.

[00:15:44] Simon: And I have some background info that I just want to mention here before I ask my next question. New York is home to nearly 700, 000 undocumented immigrants. Most of them have actually lived in New York for more than a decade. They fill critical jobs throughout the state, including as farm workers, home health care aides, daycare workers, cooks, and construction workers.

[00:16:08] Simon: They also contribute more than 3 billion in taxes to our state and local coffers every year. And around 70 percent of them are essential workers. When we know Trump’s attacks won’t just impact undocumented immigrants, especially since many immigrants live in homes with people who have different immigration statuses.

[00:16:27] Simon: Our state relies heavily on all immigrant New Yorkers who contribute 61 billion dollars in taxes and constitute 138 billion dollars in spending power every year. So with that as background, this question is for both of you, but I want to start with Irma. Can you talk about some of the broader impacts of Trump’s immigration policies beyond what they mean for immigrant communities?

[00:16:55] Irma: Sure. Yeah, I shared a little bit about the level of fear, right, and anxiety among immigrants and just the negative impact that has on the mental health of those, the members of those communities is also going to be felt by native born citizens. Right? I mentioned the neighbors. I mentioned other family members who were born here.

[00:17:20] Irma: You’ll also more likely see a decline in cultural diversity. I think that’s very important. And making it harder also for people to find home health aides or caretakers, yeah, those are just some of the broader impacts, right?

[00:17:38] Zach: I think Irma touched on a lot of the impacts and echo a lot of what Irma said.

[00:17:44] Zach: I think, the important thing to underscore is that it is not just immigrants who are going to be impacted by Trump’s deportation agenda. It’s going to be all of us who interact with, and in some ways rely on, immigrants in our day to day lives. We’re going to see impacts to people who maybe have immigrants in their families, and may find a caregiver suddenly arrested by ICE and detained, or children in school who may find that their classmates one day are no longer in their schools because they have been the subject of some kind of enforcement action.

[00:18:25] Zach: There is going to be major impacts on our economy. Much of our state’s workforce is made up of immigrants whose status may be uncertain or in limbo and could be in the crosshairs of this very cruel and indiscriminate mass deportation agenda that the Trump administration is carrying out. We’re all likely to feel the impacts just because you yourself are not an immigrant, or maybe even don’t know any immigrants personally in your personal life does not mean that you will not feel the effects of this, again, cruel and indiscriminate mass deportation agenda.

[00:19:00] Simon: Thank you both for those answers.

[00:19:01] Simon: I think that’s a critical piece of this topic. And something people should really keep in mind. Irma, I want to close with you. What can people listening to this podcast do if they want to help combat the Trump administration’s anti immigrant agenda here in New York?

[00:19:20] Irma: First, visit our website and sign up as a volunteer.

[00:19:23] Irma: And if you’re able to donate, do so please. And also contact your New York representatives and urge them to pass the New York for All and all the other bills that Zach shared that will protect immigrants and in our communities. Contact your school boards and urge them to adopt clear policies on the data that they’re collecting and how they’re going to be responding if ICE shows up at their schools.

[00:19:48] Irma: And get involved in the community with the organizations that are working directly with members of the immigrant community. And also as important is to continue to hold leaders accountable by writing letters, signing petitions, and demanding transparency and fairness, right, at every level. Yeah, those are some of the things that I think.

[00:20:09] Simon: That’s plenty. Thank you so much, Irma and Zach. Thank you so much for coming on to Rights This Way.

[00:20:16] Irma: Thank you.

[00:20:17] Zach: Yeah, thank you, Simon. It’s been great.

[00:20:20] Simon: Now, I’m joined by Ms. Melendez, who we’re referring to as Ms. Melendez for privacy reasons. She is a volunteer who is deeply involved in the NYCLU’s education equity work in Suffolk County on Long Island.

[00:20:33] Simon: We interviewed her through an interpreter. Ms. Melendez, welcome to Rights This Way.

[00:20:38] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): Gracias, muchas gracias por la invitación y aquí estamos apoyándonos.

[00:20:43] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): Thank you very much for the invitation and we are here supporting.

[00:20:47] Simon: Of course. So first, can you tell us about your concerns now that Trump is president?

[00:20:54] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): Bueno, las preocupaciones

[00:20:56] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): Well, a lot, especially right now with all the harassment and threats that the immigrant community is living. Everyone is afraid to live their daily lives as they used to. Going to work, sending their kids to school, going grocery shopping, all the activities, they’re now under threat.

[00:21:15] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): We’re living under a lot of pressure and also with a lot of fear that one day we’re gonna leave our homes and never able to come back. The children are afraid. They’re afraid when they go to school, when they come back, they’re not gonna see their parents anymore. And people are afraid, especially what they see in the news and the panic that it’s causing.

[00:21:36] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): There’s a lot of yellow journalism happening right now.

[00:21:39] Simon: And you live in a mixed status family, meaning that some members of your family are citizens or have permanent residency, and some do not. Can you talk about the particular worries that raises for you personally?

[00:21:53] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): Bueno, las preocupaciones son muchas porque

[00:21:55] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): Well, the worry and the trauma is very great because you cannot imagine what it would mean for us if we are accosted on the street by an ICE agent and what it could mean for my family,

[00:22:09] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): for us. Or that they come to our house and come to break our peace and put our kids under a hostile environment and they have to live through that experience. It really is going to affect all of us. There’s a lot of families that are, have a mixed status. And there’s a lot of fear because we know that a lot of these ICE agents, when they go to homes, they don’t care about the status of people.

[00:22:33] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): They just come and pick everyone up. And this can all lead to a very traumatic situation, especially for the children, where they do not understand what’s going on, what’s happening, and they’re just exposed to this. And it could even end up in a situation where they’re separating families, in many times unnecessarily.

[00:22:51] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): And we don’t know how the children are going to be treated, how the adults, the parents are going to be treated. Everything is very uncertain. It’s kind of, there’s a lot of fear. There’s a lot of stress, and this is going to have a long term consequences because these are really traumatic situations.

[00:23:08] Simon: And Ms. Melendez, what are you hearing from other parents in your communities about what they’re concerned about?

[00:23:16] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): Bueno, mucho miedo,

[00:23:17] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): mucha incertidumbre.

[00:23:20] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): There’s a lot of fear, a lot of uncertainty. There’s a lack of knowledge of how all of these procedures are going to go. There’s also a lot of fear because this is going to lead up to any person just feeling that they have the right to discriminate against us, to treat us wrongly, to just discriminate us.

[00:23:39] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): There’s going to be a lot of bullying in the schools between the children, and among the children. There’s also going to be harassment, even coming from teachers and adults. It’s not going to matter what profession you have. Even doctors or teachers, the color of your skin is going to determine the way you’re treated.

[00:23:58] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): So there’s going to be a lot of discrimination. There’s people right now who are citizens in our community that even working in places like the government, they are discriminated against.

[00:24:09] Simon: And then Ms. Melendez, I also wanted to talk about your work with the NYCLU. You’re part of the NYCLU’s education equity work in Suffolk County.

[00:24:20] Simon: Can you talk about what that work involves and how Trump being president impacts that work?

[00:24:27] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): Si, yo soy promotora de

[00:24:29] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): I’m a promoter of equitable, inclusive education at the Suffolk County Regional Office for the New York Civil Liberties Union. This program is a program that is very comprehensive in, is both for parents and also for the youth, for the children.

[00:24:43] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): In this case for, I’m a parent promoter. This program is focused on giving valuable information in education to parents, but also the children. So, this way, parents and children have the same information and the same skills to view its information. Our main focus is to teach parents about their rights and also how the school system works.

[00:25:08] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): All the programs that by law their children have an access to, have a right to. In which programs we can look at so our kids have an academic success. And also, we learn about other areas. For example, we’ve learned that parents have the right to send their children to schools who are completely bilingual, that those schools exist.

[00:25:31] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): That school districts have to provide all resources to all students equally. They cannot limit those resources to us. We learned, for example, that a lot of the newly arrived immigrant children, they didn’t give them access to the education that they had a right to, and we learned about that, and that is,

[00:25:49] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): it wasn’t supposed to be like that. By law, no child can be left out of school. They don’t have to provide specific address or immigration status to be able to go to school. They have to go to school as a in New York state. And that is the law as of today has not changed. And also how there’s a lot of difference of how the minorities are treated versus white people.

[00:26:13] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): And that is something that we have to change and that is why we’re focused on giving this type of education to parents because parents are the ones that have to have the power to change all of this. And the impact that it has now that President Trump is coming out with all of these new rules. Now more than ever, we have to remain strong to fight, to be united, to be able to have the tools and education we need so we can fight back against all of these, everything that’s coming out. Especially having the right information to be able to revoke everything that’s being said about minorities.

[00:26:50] Simon: And finally, Ms. Melendez, if you have one final message for people listening about what’s happening in your community and surrounding immigrant communities.

[00:27:03] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): We’ve always been at the center of the attacks because we are minorities. And with everything that’s happening under the new president, everything is becoming worse.

[00:27:14] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): We have to remain strong to be informed and also be able to protect ourselves, one another, so we can be protected. We are good people, worthy people. Our work is valuable. We are the future of this country, and we’re here to stay. And also, I want to make very clear that it’s very important for us to know our rights.

[00:27:37] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): And there’s a lot of groups and organizations like the New York Civil Liberties Union that are with us and that are ready to fight with us and that can support us.

[00:27:47] Simon: Well, with that, thank you so much, Ms. Melendez, for coming on Rights This Way. We really appreciate it.

[00:27:52] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): Gracias a todos.

[00:27:54] Mrs. Melendez (through Interpreter): Thank you, all.

[00:27:54] Simon: Thank you for listening. You can find out more about everything we talked about today by visiting nyclu. org. And you can follow us at NYCLU on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you have questions or comments about Rights This Way, you can email us at podcast at NYCLU. org. Until next time, I’m Simon McCormack.

[00:28:21] Simon: Thank you for fighting for a fair New York.