Inside the Right-Wing Plot to Ban Books with NYT Bestseller Kalynn Bayron
A legion of far-right activists is determined to purge school libraries of books they don’t like. A huge percentage of the books they want to get rid of are about race or racism, feature people of color, or include LGBTQ characters. This is a nationwide movement, and New York is not immune. Several New York school districts are facing calls to ban books.
On this episode, we talk to New York Times bestselling author Kalynn Bayron. One of Kalynn’s books, “Cinderella is Dead”, has been targeted by several book ban campaigns. She talks with us about why she wrote the story and why she thinks it’s important for students of all backgrounds to have a diverse set of books to choose from.
Then we chat with an NYCLU expert about book bans in New York and legislation that’s on Gov. Hochul’s desk that would help combat them.
Please download, rate, review, and subscribe to Rights This Way. It will help more people find this podcast.
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Transcript
Simon: [00:00:00] A legion of far right activists is dead set on purging school libraries of books they don’t like. A huge percentage of the books they want to get rid of are about race or racism, feature people of color, or include LGBTQ characters. This is a nationwide movement and New York is not immune. Several New York school districts are facing calls to ban books.
On this episode, we’ll talk to New York Times bestselling author Kalynn Bayron. One of Kalynn books, Cinderella is Dead, has been targeted by several book ban campaigns. She talks with us about why she wrote the story and why she thinks it’s important for students of all backgrounds to have a diverse set of books to choose from.
Then we’ll talk with an NYCLU expert about book bans in New York and legislation that’s on the governor’s desk that would help combat them. We’ll get into all of this in a moment, but first I’d like to ask you to please download, rate, review, [00:01:00] and subscribe to Rights This Way. It will help more people find this podcast.
Welcome to Rights This Way, a podcast from the New York Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU of New York State. I’m Simon McCormack, senior staff writer at the NYCLU and your host for this podcast, which is focused on the civil rights and liberties issues that impact New Yorkers most.
Before we get started, just a quick note that outside guests on this show do not represent the NYCLU, and their views are their own. And now I’m joined by Kalynn Bayron. Kalynn is the New York Times bestselling author of young adult novels: Cinderella is Dead, This Poison Heart, This Wicked Fate, You’re Not Supposed to Die Tonight, and Sleep Like Death, as well as the middle grade Vanquisher series. She also has a new young adult novel, Make Me a Monster, [00:02:00] out this fall. Kalynn, welcome to Rights This Way.
Kaylnn: Thank you so much for having me.
Simon: Yeah, we’re really thrilled to have you. And I’ll just start right in. When you were writing Cinderella is Dead, did you have a particular audience in mind?
Kaylnn: You know, I initially wrote Cinderella is Dead for myself, I think maybe just kind of a, maybe a younger version of myself. I am an eighties baby and I didn’t have a ton of options when it came to kind of representation in the books that I was reading when I was younger. So I know that we were there,
I know that black girls existed in literature, but we certainly didn’t have a story where we were kind of centered as princesses or heroes, especially in fantasy settings. So that was something that I kind of wanted to write towards and that my younger self definitely would’ve wanted to experience. So by the time I wrote Cinderella is Dead, we had more of that, [00:03:00] but I thought that I could write something that would contribute to this kind of next generation of young black girls really getting a chance to be seen and heard.
Simon: Yeah, absolutely. And how did you kind of think that the book would be received when it came out, and how has that expectation compared with what your experience has been?
Kaylnn: Yeah. You know, I knew from the beginning that there was, at least the potential for pushback. You know, I exist in the world as a queer black woman, and so writing a story with an all black cast where the main characters are also queer, I knew that that might be an issue for people. Even as early as the kind of critique, partner phase of writing that story, kinda sharing pages with other writers, I was in a writer’s group, and being told by those other writers who, some of them had a lot more experience than I did, you know, being [00:04:00] told maybe you should consider rewriting this or reframing this and not make the emphasis on queer black girls, or maybe just make it about a black girl, but don’t make her queer, or make her queer, but don’t make her black. It was kind of like I was being asked to choose. And then as I kind of progressed through the hurry up and wait process that is publishing, you know, I knew I wanted to be traditionally published, so I went to go find a literary agent, and during the querying process with Cinderella is Dead, there was also pushback there from agents in the publishing industry who said, this is just too, this is good, but this is just too much.
But I was, I felt very fortunate. I found an agent who was wholly supportive of what I was trying to do, but the pushback didn’t stop. You know, it went through the acquisitions process and through the publishing process, and I just kind of felt like people were saying, this book doesn’t fit the mold of a kind of young adult fantasy story, and so it feels like too much of a risk. [00:05:00] But, you know, and that was disheartening. But I will say that since the book has been published that the outpouring of support has far outweighed the kind of negativity that has also come along with publishing a work like this.
Simon: Yeah. And I think that is your last point, I kind of want to emphasize, because I think, you know, with discussions like the one we’re having today, and you know, you’ve been on a number of other discussions. We’re talking about the pushback, the reactionary sort of forces against these sorts of things. But you raise a really good point, which is the incredible support you’ve gotten. Right? And the incredible positive reaction that I think, you know, not only exists, it’s a bestselling book, but I know as human beings, like I can speak for myself, but I think this is largely a human reaction, like you really focus on like criticism much more than, much more than praise.
Kaylnn: Yeah.
Simon: You can hear like 10 nice things and you’re kinda like, that’s good, but then, you know, but then you hear like one negative thing and that really sticks. But I just want to really emphasize for our listeners that like we should always [00:06:00] consider the incredible positive reactions that a lot of books that do face book bans get, and that it’s not just a sea of negativity.
Kaylnn: Yeah, it can be hard to kind of navigate that, right? Because there’s so much coming from both sides. And so I really try to look at it as a balance. You know, I don’t think any book is above criticism or critique, but then those criticisms veer into the realm of, you know, homophobia and racism and misogyny, and that is a wholly different conversation. And so I try very hard to remember why I wrote this story in the first place, and my wonderful readers who kind of continue to remind me that these books have a place and that they mean something to people. And that is, I always try to keep that in mind alongside the, you know, the negativity that’s bound to come when you’re writing about things like this.
Simon: Totally. Yeah, absolutely. And so Cinderella is Dead was banned during the [00:07:00] 2021-2022 school year in several school districts in Tennessee and in Texas where I believe you were living at the time, is that right?
Kaylnn: That’s right.
Simon: How did you feel when you heard that your book had been banned?
Kaylnn: Yeah, I was, I was living in San Antonio and I think I was a little confused at first. You know, it’s one thing to kind of dislike a book. I knew that there would be people who wouldn’t like it and that it would make some people uncomfortable, and I was okay with that. I was okay with people kind of saying, I personally don’t like this book. That’s totally fine. I support that 100%. There are there are lots of books that I don’t like either.
So, you know, I could, I could get behind that. But it’s another thing to kind of misrepresent the story and say that it is obscene or inappropriate, which is what was being said, especially because it’s a book for young readers. It’s a book for children. And so it was being mischaracterized as something that it wasn’t.
And the more that I kind of looked into it, the more I [00:08:00] realized so many of the people lodging complaints about it hadn’t even read it. They had just seen that there was a black girl on the cover and that it was, they had heard that it was a queer story and that was enough for them to, you know, to try to ban, or in some cases, challenge.
But, you know, it’s frustrating because it’s really hard to kind of argue with that level of willful ignorance. People who are driven by things like bigotry and hatred, and it’s hard to kind of advocate for yourself, because they’re just not trying to hear anything you have to say. So it was disheartening to say the least.
I knew that I wasn’t gonna stop writing. It wasn’t gonna put me off, you know, writing more books and staying writing about the things that matter to me. But it made me kind of take a step back and look at things, look at the bigger picture, and try to really comprehend that I was fighting kind of a bigger fight.
This was bigger than me, bigger than my book. And so, yeah, it was a really strange time. It continues to be strange times, so.
Simon: [00:09:00] Yeah, absolutely. And according to a 2022 analysis by Penn America, Cinderella is Dead checks off a lot of boxes when it comes to the kinds of books, most commonly targeted by book bans. It’s fiction, written for young adults, and it has a protagonist who, as you said, is a queer person of color. Why do you think so many banned books share these characteristics?
Kaylnn: So I have a very short mean answer, but I’m gonna give you the more kind of thought out answer. I think all of these groups, right, people of marginalized race and gender and women, children, you know, every single one of these groups represents kind of this direct, I think a direct challenge to the status quo. So when we’re telling stories about black people, about queer people, about women, we are saying very loudly that our stories are just as important.[00:10:00]
They also deserve to be heard. They deserve to be at the forefront. And I think that that is terrifying for people who have kind of already sacrificed themselves at the altar of whiteness and patriarchy and a heteronormative existence. Those things tell you that you are the pinnacle. They tell you that you are kind of the standard against which everything else is judged.
And I think that our stories kind of challenge that notion and expose it for the fairytale that it is. It is wholly untrue. And so our books are banned because ignorant people would rather remain ignorant than have to confront their own biases and shortcomings. That is my thought out answer, but I have a, you know, I have other thoughts and feelings about it, but I think that that’s probably the best way that I can explain it.
Simon: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And on the flip side, why is it important for all young people to have access to books like [00:11:00] Cinderella is Dead?
Kaylnn: Yeah. So, Cinderella is Dead is important for my queer black readers because it allows them to be seen and it allows them to be centered, and that hasn’t always been the case for us.
So I think that’s really important. But it’s equally important for young readers who don’t share my characters’ marginalized identities to be exposed to it because this is how you create empathy and empathy is a guidepost along the path to community. So if we are truly seeking community and connection and understanding, we have to be empathetic beings. We have to learn to kind of think about what it is to walk in someone else’s shoes. And the kind of detour off of that path is this kind of radical individualism where it’s like this story has to be about me, and these people have to look like me and act like me and be like me in order for me to understand or to care.
And so, [00:12:00] I think that this way of thinking hurts all of us. And so Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop, she’s a scholar in multicultural children’s literature. She wrote this piece, Mirrors Windows And Sliding Glass Doors, and we hear it quoted all the time as an example of how we can be more in community as we are exposing our young readers to literature.
And I think that’s a really an apt metaphor for what we’re trying to do here and for why it’s important for all kinds of readers to read books like Cinderella is Dead and the books that my colleagues are putting out. We create windows where we can kind of look into someone else’s experience. We create mirrors so that we can see ourselves. And the sliding glass door is where we kind of open this gateway and I kind of put out my hand and I say, come on, take my hand, we’re gonna experience this together. So it’s all of those things together.
Simon: Yeah. And what are some of the [00:13:00] memorable reader responses, and these can be positive or negative, however you wanna take this question, but what are some of the memorable reader responses you’ve gotten to Cinderella is Dead?
Kaylnn: I’ve had so many, and yeah, there are great ones and there are ones that just kind of make me stop and think and, you know, are we even talking about the same book here?
People have all kinds of thoughts and opinions. But for myself, I like to keep just kind of a little, like a folder of things that readers have sent me that really mean a lot to me, letters, emails, pictures. And I think the ones that mean the most to me are when I get, you know, emails or letters from readers who say, I saw myself for the first time in this book and I had a really good time reading it.
And it wasn’t just about one specific aspect of my identity, it was about all these things. I got to see a black girl be a princess. You know, I got to see us kind of surviving a horror novel. I got to see us, you know, hold hands with our girlfriend and it not be a big deal to anyone. Like the communication that is like, I feel seen and [00:14:00] heard, those are the things that mean the most to me. And I go back to those when I get other communication that is like, more negative. So I’m so grateful for my readers because each one of those little kind of messages keeps me going, keeps reminding me of why I do this work.
Simon: Yeah, that’s a good message, I think for not just authors, but anyone who you see facing criticism, who you think are being criticized for the wrong reasons, or for even being criticized for doing a good thing. I think people should understand that the appreciation really helps in those times as well.
Kaylnn: Yeah. If you’re ever wondering if you should like, reach out to an author or any kind of creative to say like, oh, I really like this book. Like, if you’re ever worried about it, don’t worry about it. Do it. Please do it.
Simon: That is good. That is good to know. And when you were growing up, what kinds of books or other stories were you drawn to and why do you think those particular works like pulled you in?
Kaylnn: I, [00:15:00] so I loved Nancy Drew mystery novels. That was, those were the first stories that, the first like real novels that I read when I was a kid.
I loved Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. I loved Goosebumps, The Babysitter’s Club. I got into Anne Rice and Stephen King when I was way too young, which I think is a kind of hallmark of most writers, especially if you’re writing horror or thriller or mysteries, you know, reading those stories when you maybe should have picked something else.
But, hey, you know, I’m not gonna tell you what to read. I think I also read a lot of romance novels because, you know, Danielle Steel and things like that, because that was just what I had access to. I didn’t have a lot of money growing up, and so we would get books from the thrift store and we would get books that were just being given away or being purged out of the library and things like that.
And there was just like a ton of romance novels. I write a lot of horror [00:16:00] and fantasy, but I love a good romance. So I think all of those, all of those things kind of contribute to the type of writer that I have become, and I continue to find, you know, new authors and new stories to read that inspire me.
Simon: Great. Yeah, sounds like a quite a wide swath of literature growing up.
Kaylnn: Oh yeah.
Simon: And now as a parent living in New York State, what kinds of restrictions do you want to see the school district place on what your children read, if any?
Kaylnn: Yeah, so I have four kids and my, you know, my answer is a very emphatic none. None whatsoever. You know, I am a parent and I can decide what I think my kids are ready for, and we talk about books and they choose, and I let them know, like if you come across something, if you read something that you have questions about, you can ask me. Or if [00:17:00] you read something that you’re uncomfortable with, you can close that book and pick something else.
I would never assume that I could tell another parent what their child should or should not read. And so I think that if there are any rules or regulations to kind of be put in place, that should be decided by librarians and other childhood education specialists, people who have been trained in the field and who can make reasonable judgments about what is appropriate for kids’ reading levels and things like that. They’re already doing that. They’re trying so hard to just do their job and other kind of special interest groups are making that very difficult for them right now. But I think we should let them do their job, and I trust my kids’ school librarians. I don’t think that there should be restrictions the way that we’re seeing them now on what kids read.
Simon: Absolutely. And what should people listening to this do if they want to make sure New York students have access to a wide, diverse variety of books to choose from? [00:18:00]
Kaylnn: So there’s a lot that we can do. You have to be proactive in supporting your local libraries and school libraries. It seems like such a big issue, but I think that we are best served by kind of focusing in on your community.
If you look at who is running for the school board, which the school board is a place where book banners try to kind of sneak their way in. So look at who is running for your local public library boards. Vote in district elections, local elections, county elections. Vet the candidates yourself if you can.
There’s usually a lot of information around this because this is such a kind of a highlighted topic and be loud about inclusive books. Request them from your library. Make sure they’re in your kids’ schools. We really have to stay vigilant and we have to stay involved, especially at a local level, if we hope to kind of combat this new spate of book bannings. But you know, connect with your local librarians and your educators and ask them what would be helpful to them. [00:19:00] They are full of ideas and they are a wealth of knowledge and resources. So I really do think that we can win this fight if we stick together. I think that we are capable of doing so much and you know, it might just feel like you’re one person, but it really is all of us here in community trying to make things better.
Simon: And that’s a great place to leave it. Kalynn, thank you so much for coming on Rights This Way.
Kaylnn: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was great.
Simon: And now I’m joined by Emma Hulse. Emma is an education council at the NYCLU’s Education Policy Center.
Emma: Thank you so much for having me, Simon.
Simon: Yeah, it’s great to have you. So I will just start with a very, a very basic, broad question. Can you just lay out the landscape of book bans, both across the country and around New York?
Emma: So this has been a huge problem since 2020 across the country. So Penn America, which I think keeps the most comprehensive tally of [00:20:00] book bans across the country, has found more than 16,000 book bans nationally since 2021, which as they say, and I think is true, is the highest number of bans since the McCarthy era in the 1950s.
While this is really heavily concentrated in sort of the red states you might expect, places like Florida and Texas and Iowa, blue states are certainly not immune. Here in New York, one of the only real attempts to try to catalog not just bans, but challenges to books was a FOIL project done by the Journal News in the Hudson Valley, and they found that over a two year period, there were more than 200 challenges to books in the Hudson Valley alone.
So this is a really widespread problem, even in New York State. And so we’ve seen that the kind of books that are most commonly challenged are books featuring people of color or written by authors of color, and also LGBTQ [00:21:00] communities. These books constitute a really high number of the number of books that are challenged nationally and also here in New York. And this has also become more, it’s become more expansive over time, so it’s not limited to schools. It includes public libraries, and it has a real chilling effect on schools. When there is a challenge, even if there’s an unsuccessful challenge, after it happens, school administrators are much less likely to approve curriculum plans that feature books by and about LGBTQ people or people of color and teachers and librarians may not want to select those materials either.
The other thing that I think is happening is sort of a parallel movement in the courts. So NYCLU litigated the key Supreme Court case on this issue in the 1980s. It’s called Pico Island Trees Board of Education Island Trees v Pico. And that case, the Supreme Court [00:22:00] held that it’s not permissible for books to be removed because of ideological disapproval of the contents of those books, or because of the race or identity of the author. And we have now seen a line of cases coming out of lower courts, including a recent, really troubling decision from the Fifth Circuit that would effectively overrule Island Trees. The courts are declining to apply Island Trees, and it’s really setting the stage for the Supreme Court to overrule that case in its entirety, which would eliminate really important protections, first amendment protections for libraries.
Simon: I’m curious, what are the grounds that the Fifth Circuit is claiming for allowing these bans to proceed.
Emma: So in the Fifth Circuit case, the Yano County case, that actually involved not a public school library, but a public library separate from the school system. And so, you know, in the context of Pico, the plurality decision really looked at the school libraries being distinct from curriculum [00:23:00] and distinct from other contexts where schools have more authority to decide what is taught and saw that there was a real need to prevent any kind of viewpoint discrimination in the context of the library. And what the Fifth Circuit did was say in effect that in the context of the library, this is not sort of a unique setting where it’s akin to say allowing to have protests in front of the town hall.
It’s more like when the government speaks, and so it applied the doctrine of government speech to say that the First Amendment does not apply to public libraries. It’s a really concerning decision. Obviously, it’s not the final word on this issue, but it’s something we’re watching very closely.
Simon: Yeah, it’s exactly as you said. It seems like they’re trying to chip away at that bedrock Pico decision. And Emma, you also brought up something that I just wanna drive home before I move to my next question, which is, you noted that [00:24:00] even when bans are not successful, they can have a chilling effect. They can actually succeed, at least in some ways, because they make librarians, they make educators less likely to wanna pick something controversial that could be very important for students to be, you know, made aware of or to read, but they just don’t want to hassle through. They don’t want another laborious and trying and emotionally taxing fight on their hands. And so with that in mind, what is fueling these book ban campaigns, and how successful would you say they’ve been?
Emma: Yeah, so I think the Wright very much wants to paint the picture that this is a grassroots movement of parents rising up to resist what they see as woke curriculum in public schools. But in fact, this was a very well coordinated campaign from the get go. So Moms for Liberty has put a huge amount of resources into organizing parents across the country [00:25:00] to organize around curriculum and school libraries.
Moms for Liberty has been led by folks with a lot of experience in the world of right wing politics. They’re well financed, they’re well connected, and one of the key resources for a lot of folks who are bringing these challenges against books has been a website called book looks. That website was shut down this spring, but it was started by people who were affiliated with Moms for Liberty.
And it was essentially a data base of hundreds of books with book reports, sort of grading the book as to how objectionable it was. And we saw in many cases, including here in New York, that when people would file challenges, they would just print the report from book looks and file that. So this is not sort of an organic process. This was a very intentional, coordinated effort to challenge curriculum and library materials at schools across the country, I think with the [00:26:00] ultimate goal of really undermining public trust in public education.
Simon: And where have we seen, I know we were just, you and I were just chatting yesterday about like, specific bans in a particular region of the state, so I imagine you can’t name every book ban attempt that you’re aware of. But in general, where have you seen book ban attempts in New York? And what kinds of books have we seen targeted?
Emma: So I would say that there are real hotspots around the state.
We’ve seen a large number of challenges in the Hudson Valley, including some removals, including of the book Genderqueer, which was removed in the Wappingers, Wappingers Falls District, and also in Mahopac, which is in Putnam County, close to Wappingers. We have seen challenges in the Rochester area, in the Finger Lakes region. And then further west, there was very recently a really extensive challenge in the Ken-Ton district outside of Buffalo, where a parent [00:27:00] challenged more than 20 books. Again, she had used Moms for Liberty’s resources like book looks to compile a list of books to challenge. And we’ve also seen some cases that are a little bit harder to fit in with this pattern where a parent brings a challenge and a review committee meets and makes a decision on whether to retain or remove the book.
You know, in New York City, there were actually a couple years ago, boxes of books found in a dumpster outside of an elementary school in Staten Island with post-it notes on top of the books saying why the books were objectionable. And then there was a recent case in Long Island that we did a fair amount of investigation into where a school board voted to declare a set of 13 discrete titles, 14 total titles obsolete about a year ago.
That included books by really well known American authors like Toni Morrison. The majority of those books were by authors of color. And then there were some books that have been historically [00:28:00] really real targets of book banning like Fahrenheit 451 or Inherit the Wind. And so we did a couple of Freedom of Information Law requests to try to understand what was happening and the district said these books were damaged, we excessed them, they remain in the curriculum, but then when we asked for both their purchase orders from the last several years, and also their syllabi for their current English and history classes, only one of those books appeared on the purchase order and in the syllabi. And so we have real questions about whether or not the district was honest, and we sent a public letter to them this summer, calling on them to be more transparent about the decisions they’re making about what books are being taught in classrooms.
Simon: And why should New Yorkers even those without kids or without kids in school right now, be concerned about book bans and academic censorship campaigns?
Emma: Freedom of expression is really central to our identity [00:29:00] as New Yorkers. Our state constitution goes further than the federal Constitution in protecting freedom of speech, and this was very clearly intended by the framers of the New York State Constitution.
And the New York Court of Appeals has acknowledged again and again that New York provides additional protection for freedom of expression and freedom of speech. And we here at the NYCLU feel really strongly that young people are entitled to those protections as well, that young people should have the right to access ideas and information in schools.
And that’s important, not only so that people can feel valued and safe and supported at school, but also for them to enter into public discourse as full citizens. If public schools can’t model for students how to engage in thoughtful intellectual inquiry, engagement with a wide range of ideas, how do we expect young people to be able to do that as citizens in our democracy?
Simon: Right. And that’s so [00:30:00] critical, you know, especially now with democracy, very much under threat on a number of fronts. As you said, this is critical bedrock democracy stuff. And so I want to kind of transition us to the, you know, what is to be done sort of section of this conversation. Talk about the Freedom to Read Act, what it is and what it would do. This is, I’ll just quickly say that this is a piece of legislation in New York State, a legislature that passed the legislature this year and is awaiting a signature from Governor Hochul.
Emma: So the Freedom to Read Act passed the legislature this session. And so it would require the commissioner of education and school library systems to develop policies to ensure that library staff are empowered to curate and develop collections that provide students with the widest array of developmentally appropriate materials available. In practice, we think this would require the creation of [00:31:00] policies for all school districts and school library systems that would cover library selection criteria and the process for selecting library materials, and also what happens in the event that there is a challenge. And we think this is really important because in the districts where challenges haven’t been successful, it’s frequently because they have a very strong policy in place that establishes a clear process for what happens when there is a challenge. We think even, you know, the policies that do exist could be improved on. So we created a model policy a couple years ago after we got some intakes from the Hudson Valley, where we laid out some improvements that could be made to the standard policies that districts have.
And so this bill would require all districts to have those policies in place and would require the Commissioner of Education to create those policies for districts to adopt or create regulations stating what needs to be [00:32:00] included in the policies.
Simon: And what’s your pitch to Governor Hochul for why she should sign this bill?
Emma: So this is a really common sense piece of legislation. This is just about ensuring that districts have clear process and clear policy around how library books get picked and what happens if there is a challenge that protects librarians and it protect students’ right to read. This would not fundamentally change the power of school boards to decide what is included in the library and in the curriculum.
This would just make sure that there’s clear process and protocol in place, and that’s so important to ensure that First Amendment rights are protected in school libraries across our state.
Simon: And finally, Emma, if people are listening who would like to help get the Freedom to Read Act across the finish line, get Hochul to sign it into law, what should they do?
Emma: So I think the governor is considering the [00:33:00] legislation now. I think it’s really important for her to be hearing from citizens who care about collections at your school libraries, who care about librarians that this bill is important. Ideally, would love to see her sign this bill during National Banned Books Week, which is October 5th through the 11th.
So call her office, send emails and stay connected with the NYCLU because we’ll have action items coming up.
Simon: Thank you for listening. You can find out more about everything we talked about today by visiting nyclu.org, and you can follow us at NYCU on Instagram, twitter and Facebook. If you have questions or comments about Rights This Way, you can email us at podcast@nyclu.org. Until next time, I’m Simon McCormack. Thank you for fighting for a fair New York.
