Mahmoud Khalil in His Own Words

On this episode, we hear from Mahmoud Khalil. Mahmoud is a lawful permanent resident who was kidnapped by the Trump administration and held in detention because of his advocacy for Palestinian Rights.

After more than 100 days in detention, Mahmoud is finally where he belongs: at home with his family in New York City. In this episode – which is a collaboration between Rights This Way and the ACLU’s podcast, At Liberty – At Liberty host W. Kamau Bell speaks with Mahmoud about his newly reacquired freedom, fatherhood, his wife Noor and what he wants everyone to remember from his experience taking on the Trump administration.

The NYCLU and ACLU are part of the legal team representing Mahmoud against Trump’s unprecedented assault on his free speech.

Please download, rate, review and subscribe to Rights This Way. It will help more people find this podcast.

The NYCLU and ACLU are part of Mahmoud’s legal team that includes the ACLU of New Jersey, the ACLU of Louisiana, Dratel & Lewis, the Center for Constitutional Rights, CLEAR, Van Der Hout LLP, and Washington Square Legal Services.

Resources

What are the Stakes of Mahmoud Khalil’s Case?

After More than 100 Days, Mahmoud Khalil is Finally Home

One-on-One with Mahmoud Khalil

Transcript

Simon: [00:00:00] Welcome to Rights This Way, a podcast from the New York Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU of New York State. I’m Simon McCormick, senior staff writer at the NYCLU, and your host for this podcast, which is focused on the civil rights and liberties issues and impact New Yorkers most.

On this episode, we hear from Mahmoud Khalil. Mahmoud is a lawful permanent resident who was kidnapped by the Trump administration and held in detention because of his advocacy for Palestinian rights. After more than 100 days in detention, Mahmoud is finally where he belongs at home with his family in New York City.

In this episode, which is a collaboration between Rights This Way and the ACLU’s podcast At Liberty, At Liberty Host W. Kamal Bell speaks with Mahmoud about his newly reacquired freedom, fatherhood, his wife knew and what he wants everyone to remember from his [00:01:00] experience taking on the Trump administration.

The NYCLU and ACLU are part of the legal team representing Mahmoud against Trump’s unprecedented assault. On his free speech, you can hear more about his case in a previous episode that will link to in the show notes. We will get started in just a minute, but first, I’d like to ask you to please download, rate, review, and subscribe to Rights This Way. It will help more people find this podcast.

Kamau: Hey everybody, it’s me, W. Kamau Bell. Welcome back to the ACLU’s podcast, At Liberty, hosted by this guy. On this show, we explore the big questions on the big issues affecting our big country, and especially our hardest-hit and most vulnerable communities.

Kamau: Now, a few months back, we recorded an episode about our right to protest — and at its center was a case of Mahmoud Khalil, who had recently been arrested by ICE. Khalil, as listeners likely know, is a lawful permanent resident in the United States and a Columbia University graduate — and he was targeted for deportation [00:02:00] by the Trump administration because of his Palestinian rights advocacy.

Kamau: For 104 days, he was illegally detained in Louisiana, thousands of miles away from his family. He missed the birth of his first child, Deen. He was denied due process. And he and his wife, Dr. Noor Abdalla, were subjected to harassment and threats to their safety. Throughout, CLEAR at CUNY, the Center for Constitutional Rights, the ACLU, and other organizations continued to advocate for him, and #FreeMahmoud became a rallying cry heard around the world. In late June, a federal court successfully ordered his release, at last. Thankfully, he is now back in New York City with his family. And today I am so honored to have him join us on the podcast. Thank you for doing this with me.

Mahmoud: No, thank you so much for having me.

Kamau: You’re, sort of, a celebrity now. And then we start to put you in “celebrity,” and it [00:03:00] might disentangle you from dad, husband, activist.

Mahmoud: Yeah, that’s actually spot on. It’s so difficult. Now, I wanna go for walks, like with my newborn and Noor my wife. I wanna go to the — my like favorite brunch place. And for the most part, I can’t. Like, I wanted to come here on the subway. But then everyone was like, “No, that’s not a good idea…”

Kamau: Oh, wow. Wow.

Mahmoud: “…to use the subway.” So, I had to uh — yeah, like be stuck in traffic for extra like 10-15 minutes. So, now there’s all these, like, small things. Yeah, I don’t think, you know, fame or celebrity is actually like that exciting at all. I —

Kamau: Yeah.

Mahmoud: Yeah. Especially — I did not choose that; ICE did. But —

Kamau: ICE decided to make you famous. Yes. Yeah.

Mahmoud: Um, yeah, but it’s still, like, I think it’s a responsibility. Of course, in some ways it’s a privilege that, now, like I have such a platform, but it’s [00:04:00] also a big responsibility that I now carry on my shoulder and that I have to deliver. Because you know that more than anything, like, no one’s perfect and there’s no way that, like, I can take everything and take it forward. It’s — I don’t think that I can do that. But I will do my best, like basically, for my people and for the rights of people in general.

Kamau: Yeah. I think you have found yourself in that rarefied activist air where you have become, like, maybe one of the faces of the movement, or currently right now, the face of the movement. And I feel like, as a Black American, I’ve seen it happen to a Black activist, where suddenly, through a series of circumstances that they weren’t trying to make happen — they become the voice of the movement or a voice for the movement. I think about — I live in Oakland, California, and out there, there’s a lot of the Black Panthers started out there, and Angela Davis was — is out there. And Angela Davis, who is — went through [00:05:00] a thing where she became — because she was like America’s — one of America’s in the top 10 most wanted list, but just an activist for her people. And, you know, she told a story one time about how while she was on America’s top 10 most wanted list, Stevie Wonder was coming to town, and she’s like, “I just want to go see Stevie Wonder.” And she said, “even though I’m America’s most wanted criminal, I wanna see Stevie Wonder.”

Mahmoud: Yeah, exactly.

Kamau: And she went to a Stevie Wonder concert. I said, “how did it go?” She’s like, “it was fun,” because everybody there was just, like, happy to see her outside having a good time, so —

Mahmoud: Yeah, and this is like, unfortunately, what power wanna do. Like to —when they portray us as like — or whatever like the words they use to dehumanize us, like, to take this away from us. That when you hear — whether it’s Angela Davis or Mahmoud Khalil or anyone — like, “oh, that criminal, that — ” like, all these words. And to me this is like very saddening, like in a way that like, “No, it’s not — ” Like, I love to go out. I love, like, to have friends. I love to meet other Americans [00:06:00] — other people in the street. Like it’s not that “Oh, like, I’m just like wanna protest and wanna do — ” I don’t know, like all these words. And in terms of becoming like a voice, or a voice of the movement, it’s also — it carries very heavily, ’cause I know there are many more brave students out there…

Kamau: Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: …who are risking everything. Much more than what I risked speaking out for Palestine, speaking out against injustice. And then, like, it’s me that’s the voice of the movement. It’s just — it doesn’t feel right to me.

Kamau: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: In so many ways, to be honest.

Kamau: I’m sort of relating to the celebrity side of this, because I’m famous, and I speak out about good causes. Sometimes people treat me as if I’m the answer, and I’m like — I’m always very aware, like I have to point to people who are the answers, the actual activists. People like yourself. To make sure that I don’t start to think, “oh yeah, I am. I do know what I’m — ”

Mahmoud: Yeah. That’s — I think that’s the most important thing. Yeah. You have to teach me that. [00:07:00]

Kamau: [laughs]

Mahmoud: [laughs] That’s — that’s so, yeah. I think, a hundred percent, I totally agree with like…

Kamau: Yeah.

Mahmoud: …about how we use our voices to actually point to where the answer is.

Kamau: Yeah.

Mahmoud: Rather than give the answer, or expect us, like, to have all the answers. ‘Cause we don’t. Like, it’s as simple as that. And no one should have all the answers.

Kamau: No. Yeah. No one should say they have all the answers. I just feel like, it’s like a love train of like, I point to you, you point to somebody else, that person points to somebody else and we all sort of eventually point at each other. You know what I mean? We all sort of understand that it takes a —

Mahmoud: That — a movement. That when, what, like a civil movement, like a real civil movement is there’s no leader, and it’s the collective…

Kamau: Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: …that actually carries the movement forward. And then the collective has the answer, not like one specific individual in that collective.

Kamau: Yeah. I do wanna focus a little bit more on the joy side of this, because now you’ve entered into the phase of like being written about when you’re just out in the world enjoying yourself. This is a good one. So, you went [00:08:00] to see a comedy show recently, it sounds like.

Mahmoud: Yeah. [laughs]

Kamau: I read it in the — it was the New York magazine or the New Yorker?

Mahmoud: The New Yorker, yeah.

Kamau: The New Yorker. I get those confused because I’m from the West Coast.

Mahmoud: [laughs]

Kamau: But — so, can you tell us a little about the comedy show you went to?

Mahmoud: We went to Ramy — Ramy’s comedy show. Ramy Youssef, who’s Egyptian American, comedian/I think everything.

Kamau: Yeah. [laughs] Activist, writer —

Mahmoud: Activist, yeah. He’s amazing. He’s amazing.

Kamau: And you and Noor went?

Mahmoud: Noor and I, yeah, went there and Hanif Abdurraqib, the one who wrote this amazing piece, I can’t — I don’t know how he can come up with such words to describe like, just the like things. It’s, uh —

Kamau: I thought it was very — it was very expertly crafted and delicate and beautiful without feeling like we were — like he was demanding that you and Noor, like, engage with it. Like he —

Mahmoud: No, I mean, to be honest, I did not know that he was doing that, until after the fact. [laughs] I was like, “maybe if you all [00:09:00] told me, like, I could have done something,” [laughs]

Kamau: [laughs] You would’ve acted differently. Yeah.

Mahmoud: Yeah. [laughs] But he did such an amazing job to be honest. And it was the first time, I think, I go to an event — or actually like — just like to be with people after my release. I think it was like a week after my release.

Kamau: Mm-hmm. Oh wow.

Mahmoud: Or less. Actually, it was, yeah, like about a week after my release. So, to see the amount of love from people, it gave me so much hope, that actually people can see truth, can see what we are as humans, like —

Kamau: And then there’s this moment — I wanna talk about this briefly, and we can move on — apparently — where you come out on stage with Ramy, was Noor on stage with you too?

Mahmoud: No, she was not.

Kamau: Okay.

Mahmoud: Yeah, I — for a moment, you know, I had something to say in my mind, but then when I was there and just seeing like thousands of people, like, standing and you can see like some people [00:10:00] like actually crying in the crowd.

Mahmoud: It felt so overwhelming, like I felt very emotional. And at some point, like I couldn’t — I couldn’t actually like talk, like —

Kamau: Yeah, and you talk for a living. And you —

Mahmoud: So, it felt that way. Like that — and this is why I always felt that like the people are, you know, like with us, the people can see the truth.

Kamau: Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: And this is why the authority, and the power is going — and the establishment, I would say, is going crazy. Because they cannot comprehend that like, well the people are actually like awakening to what’s happening and they see beyond hate. The hate that they’re trying to spew about like Muslims, about Palestinians, about like anyone who’s different from what this establishment is trying [00:11:00] to portray as a perfect American or what — who is the “ideal American,” …

Kamau: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Mahmoud: …that like Trump and Stephen Miller and those like, are trying to portray now, like, to the public.

Kamau: As a — as an African American/Black American — I use both — I know that when I see other people in this country under attack, even if they don’t share my identity, I’m next on that list.

Mahmoud: Absolutely. Absolutely. ‘Cause they usually start with the weakest. In my case, like, you know, they started with visa holders, green card holders, but we can see now, like, they’re going after citizens.

Kamau: Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: Even — they start with pro-Palestine, but also they’ve already started with, as you said, like African-American community here, the Latin community now in California and Florida. So, it wouldn’t stop here, it would go literally — and I mean, they’ve already started with the [00:12:00] LGBTQ community as well, like, going after them — would continue to go after women, like — so it wouldn’t stop. Like if someone thinks that it would stop at Palestinians, it wouldn’t.

Kamau: Yeah.

Mahmoud: If they think it would stop at Muslims, it wouldn’t. It’s just like for them — it’s a building block. Like they wanna see your reaction to this. Then they can go after the second one in line, until they go after everyone who they want to go after. And this is what’s really important for people to understand; like, we don’t have to agree on politics. I don’t have to agree with you on politics. It’s just like to — agree on our rights, like to defend our rights.

Kamau: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: That is like legitimate, right? And I think now that — I hope that, like, the public are well aware of this now.

Kamau: I think slowly, I think we’re seeing a lot of people who are coming to [00:13:00] new political awareness. I just — the thing that I hope is that it — that their new awareness sticks. You know, I think sometimes with people that come to a new awareness, it’s a little bit like your New Year’s resolution to “this year, I’m going to the gym every day,” and then by that second week you’re like, “ah.”

Mahmoud: Yeah, the particular memory is usually short, unfortunately. But with the level of suppression that this administration is currently inflicting on people, I think like the public is more — or wants to be involved more, because it’s impacting their daily lives and their future.

Kamau: Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: And their like — all their, like, you know, grandchildren, children, all of that. So, that’s why, like, we should think about long-term rather than just like, “oh, now this is happening, and in a year we forget and we — ”

Kamau: Yes. Yeah. The other thing that I thought, and this is the last I’ll bring up the standup comedy show, [00:14:00] but this is segue — it’s the way to segue into another thing — was that, when I saw that you and Noor were both there, I was like, “Oh, cool. They got somebody to take care of the baby.”

Mahmoud: [laughs]

Kamau: As a dad, I was like, “Oh, good! They have help!” [laughs]

Kamau: They have help. [laughs] So like I — that’s — and that’s how I know I’m like 70% dad to whatever else I am, but I was like, “Oh, cool! They got somebody to take care of him. Good for them. Good for them. They got out of the house.”

Mahmoud: [laughs] No, we’re very — we’re very grateful to have like so many friends. And a friend of ours, like immediately, like when we received the invitation, like she was like, “I’m gonna take care of Deen. You don’t have to worry about him.” But then like, Noor and I were on our phone, just like, it was the first time we leave Deen alone.

Kamau: I’m sure.

Mahmoud: So, we’re just like texting like our friend like, “Oh, like, is he okay? Did he eat, did he sleep right? Yeah. Did you change him?” [laughs]

Kamau: Did he say he missed us? [laughs]

Mahmoud: [laughs]

Kamau: Did he say my name? Did I miss him saying my name? Did he say —

Mahmoud: So, yeah, it was, I think — yeah, that was the first time we leave him. [00:15:00] Like —

Kamau: I’m sure. Especially you’d only been out, like you said, a week or so, right?

Mahmoud: Yeah, exactly. Like I think like the first time it was during the rally, like we left him for like an hour, but he was in the next two. Yeah. So, like, he was with us all the time. But that one, like four hours, it felt a lot like.

Kamau: Yeah. Well, the baby’s just sleeping. The baby’s just eating and sleeping.

Mahmoud: [laughs] I know. Yeah. But it’s — to us, we don’t like — we don’t know.

Kamau: I’ve been there, I’ve been there. I’ve got —

Mahmoud: And you need someone you trust, like to take care of the baby. You can’t just like bring like a random babysitter.

Kamau: Yep. Nope. You can’t just — you can’t go on TaskRabbit and say: get a babysitter. [laughs]

Mahmoud: [laughs] Yep. So, uh, no, but it’s — and this is a new reality that, you know, I’m readjusting to. Just — now, like we have a baby. Like we — it changes all your life, like, with your sleep schedule, with every — I mean, you know, [00:16:00] like, I wouldn’t go in an end — but it’s — I mean, it feels so rewarding as well, to take care of the baby and just like to spend some time.

Kamau: Yeah.

Mahmoud: Even if like, you think they’re not reacting or understanding, but just like, to me, spending like from 5 a.m. to 7 a.m. with him, like, although like I would be so tired, but like I — it feels the world to me.

Kamau: Well, I just wanna say a couple things. One, afterwards you’ll meet my 14-year-old out there who was once a baby. A tiny, tiny baby who would sit right here on my shoulder, and I would just sit in the middle of the night watching movies or whatever with that baby there, that time means a lot. And so, I’m happy for you that you have that time.

Mahmoud: Yeah. Especially that time was like stolen from me for about two months — actually two months. I was released on the two months anniversary of Deen. Yeah, like I spent the first few days, like at night, not sleeping, just like looking at him, staring at him. [00:17:00]

Kamau: Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: Because it felt that such moments can be stolen, like, abruptly, any moment, without any cause.

Kamau: Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: So, I want, like, to clutch to these moments with him and with Noor.

Kamau: If there’s any advice I can give you as a new dad, I guess I have three daughters.

Mahmoud: Please!

Kamau: You — that time is super important. You cannot snuggle a baby enough. You cannot hold a baby enough. You can’t — there’s advice, somebody told me: it’s impossible to spoil a newborn baby. So, sometimes people are like, “Oh, I’m holding him too much,” or “I’m being too — ” No, it is impossible to spoil a newborn baby. So, enjoy all that time.

Mahmoud: I’m trying.

Kamau: Yeah. Yeah, and really, it’s — and that’s where our relationship building — I feel like my relationship with my daughter has only gotten — been clearer since that moment. It’s just — it’s the same exact relationship. It’s just — there’s just more talk back now.

Mahmoud: Yeah. [laughs]

Kamau: But it’s not — but it has not changed. I knew that kid then. I know that kid now. So — [00:18:00] the other thing I think, as a dad, it is — the transition from not-a-dad to dad (and I say this specifically as a dad, because as the person who did not give birth to the kid, there’s a — I can’t speak to the other side, but) is dramatic even if you’re there the whole time. I can’t imagine what it was like to be let out of detention and suddenly be thrown into two-month-old baby. Like you don’t have this, sort of, this slow segue of like newborn, week-old. How did you manage that? I feel like — it almost felt like you would’ve needed some sort of decompression chamber.

Mahmoud: Yeah, I’m still struggling with that. Like, I mean, Noor has helped me a lot with that. I mean, she’s a real like warrior, like, you know. She was eight months pregnant when I like — was kidnapped, and she managed like through all of that. And even during the first months, like, just that — every day she would tell me like, how day by day, [00:19:00] like how she felt during these days and months. But I’m still learning. Like yesterday I learned like how the diaper, like if there’s — apparently there’s a color change. [laughs] I discovered that yesterday, like when I was about to change him, it was like, yeah, you need to change him now because the color changed, I was told “What color?” [laughs] Then there’s that line that changes from green to blue or —

Kamau: Yep! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Mahmoud: [laughs] So, it’s still a process and mostly like also to, you know, to be as much support to Noor as possible. Not to leave her like with the same burden that she had to carry for 104 days that I was not present.

Kamau: Yeah, I — you know, every dad has to learn about that color change. It’s just, usually, we don’t have to learn — we don’t learn about it three months in. You know what I mean? Like every dad has — there’s all these little, tiny things that every dad has to learn. And I wanna be clear. You say it is [00:20:00] “being compelled to do these things,” and I just, as a dad, wanna be like, “not all dads feel compelled to do these things.” So, I wanna give you some special love as a good dad.

Mahmoud: No, I mean, it’s — we have to do it. Like it’s —

Kamau: You say that, but not every dad does that.

Mahmoud: To me it’s a no-brainer. Like it’s —

Kamau: Well, that may be true. Yeah.

Mahmoud: Despite, like me, you know, like, you know, because I’m under so much stress now, under so much pressure. And I have so many things to do, like with the legal team. But I also wanna have that, like, support to Noor first and foremost, but also to build that relationship with Deen, which is also like equally important.

Kamau: Mm-hmm. I just wanna also say that I was a part of — I was asked by the ACLU to be a part of the video where they — reading the letter you wrote to Deen. And it’s one of the honors of my life to feel like — to —

Mahmoud: Thank you. No, it’s — I mean, the first time I saw that video, actually was at an ABC interview.

Kamau: [00:21:00] I saw that. I saw that footage. Yeah.

Mahmoud: I mean, I — Noor played it to me on the phone. I did not see the video. But it also felt like some — again, so emotional, just like for so many dads to come together to read the letter that I wrote to Deen, and I mean, thank you. Thanks to everyone. Thanks to the ACLU team who made that happen. And this is one of the ways like, you know, that you — you feel that you are supported. Like when I was inside, where — Noor was delivering Deen, and it felt that I’m — you know, the whole world, like, closed on me. It felt like I was so alone. It’s just like so dark. Like during that moment. So, to then like see all these like celebrities, and even like people, like just around the world, like actually reacting to that moment. It felt like [00:22:00] there’s support. The world is healing. It’s not that dark.

Kamau: Yeah. Well, like I said, it was an honor to be asked to be a part of it, and so happy that you’re to be able to talk with you. You used a word — and I — that I think is very key in talking about this. When we talked about ICE coming to get you, you say, “when I was kidnapped” and I — and a lot of people may have thoughts about what happened to you, or may have thoughts about the legal system, or what the federal government’s right to do something or not do something. What makes you use the word kidnapped?

Mahmoud: The fact that you have plain-clothes agents in unmarked cars come in to arrest you without an arrest warrant. And this is — I mean, this is the basics of due process.

Kamau: Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: This is the basics of rule of law. And they don’t tell you anything. And they just take you from one place [00:23:00] to another, without even, like, what are the charges, allegations, any of that.

Kamau: Here’s some paperwork, here’s —

Mahmoud: Yeah! Nothing! Nothing.

Kamau: Like here’s a form from the judge. Here’s a —

Mahmoud: At all. And despite like my repeated requests to have that, so it’s — it is like kidnapping, like that’s how you kidnap like people.

Kamau: Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: Even if you are a law enforcement, this is not — this is not how the law is — like should be enforced.

Kamau: Yeah.

Mahmoud: There are processes. That’s why we have due process. That’s why there is rule of law. To manage such situations that no one is above the law.

Kamau: Mm-hmm.

Mahmoud: So, that’s why I say it’s being kidnapped. Especially that like, until this moment, I’m not being charged with any…

Kamau: Still?

Mahmoud: …with any crimes. No crimes.

Kamau: Still? As we sit here? Since they took you, you were there for 104 days, till this point, we sit here right now. And you’ve been out for how long now?

Mahmoud: Um, three weeks.

Kamau: Wow. Only three weeks? [00:24:00] The new — the news moves so fast. I would’ve said two months. It’s only been three weeks. Wow.

Mahmoud: So, yeah, it’s all these circumstances and conditions is what kidnapping is. Like, this is how people that we — or governments that the United States, like, oppose — they kidnap their opponents — political opponents, during the night — come and take them. And that — that what happened to me.

Kamau: Yeah, I think that I — the way I’ve been sort of framing this for people — for Americans who don’t have a lot of international experience, or don’t pay attention to international news, is like; when I was a kid, the things that our country’s doing, we made fun of other countries for.

Mahmoud: Yeah, yeah.

Kamau: Like, we thought of those countries as being backwards or anti-democracy, and we’re doing those things.

Mahmoud: Yeah, yeah. And this is — this is why I fled Syria, because in Syria, similar like they have Mukhabarat, which is intelligence, they do the same. Like they come [00:25:00] extrajudicially, without any warrants, without any judge knowing what these people are doing, and they just like kidnap people and throw them in jails.

Kamau: I just want to shout out and have — give you some time to talk about Noor. Because without a partner like her, this just happens very differently. Without a partner who immediately pulls their phone out, calls the lawyer — like there’s just a lot that Noor did in that moment, and while you were there, and speaking out for you, that I think, you know, a lot of times it’s easier — it’s easy to focus on, you know, for Americans it’s like we have to focus on Martin Luther King Jr. and also Coretta, who’s right there, making it possible and doing things you don’t even know.

Mahmoud: Yeah. Yeah.

Kamau: The invisible work. So, let’s — can we talk about Noor for a second now?

Mahmoud: No, I mean, in my case, like Noor is the story, I believe. Like without her, I don’t think like things would have worked the same way. She’s very fierce. And to be honest, like even me, I was very [00:26:00] impressed, like, by like her courage. Like the first couple of days, because I was so concerned about her health and safety.

Kamau: Mm-hmm. And the stress that puts on her. Yeah.

Mahmoud: Exactly. So, I was like, “You know, Noor, like, you don’t have to do anything. Like — just like — you’re already eight months pregnant. Just — ”

Kamau: Just be pregnant. That’s plenty.

Mahmoud: “Be pregnant.” Exactly. And she refused. She literally like, was handling, like, an operation room. Just to, you know, handle every aspect. Like she would interview the lawyers. She would talk to the media, to my family, like update them on the situation, everything. And yeah, I don’t think I can thank her enough or give her enough credit for what she has done — because she’s still doing a lot now too.

Kamau: Yeah.

Mahmoud: And all that again, like while she was pregnant. Like even the day before delivery, like, [00:27:00] she was doing a lot of things. And then a week after, she was back at it again. And I think, you know, this is one of the things I feel very grateful about, like having such a supporting like partner, who never blamed me for any of that. Like, who believed —

Kamau: Oh yeah. Who didn’t say, “Why did you…?” “If you hadn’t spoken out so loudly…” Blah, blah, blah.

Mahmoud: Exactly. No, no. She was like on board with all of that, because she knows that it’s important to speak against like Israeli atrocities against my people. She believes in a better world for Deen and all other Palestinian children. My people are being slaughtered by the day. And this is why I really appreciate Noor, for being that mindful and — actually because she also does, like, advocacy [00:28:00] the same as I do, like for Palestine. Because we know that this goes — transcends like our individual circumstances and it’s actually for a world where Deen and other children around the world can live in peace and dignity.

Kamau: I — and I know you’ve talked about this story a lot. What surprised you about being in detention? Just any detail, anything. Could be good, bad or indifferent. What did you not expect? Or, and again, I don’t know. I’m not asking for a particular answer.

Mahmoud: No, I was entirely surprised that such injustices happening on U.S. soil in these detention centers. I never, to be honest, like, thought or expected that such injustice is happening, on U.S. soil, every single day, against so many brilliant people in —

Kamau: Because you’re seeing all sorts of people in there. Yeah.

Mahmoud: Yeah, literally. And to me that was a shock. Like when I was there, hearing people’s stories [00:29:00] and learning about this crooked immigration system that the U.S. has. Because it’s not something the U.S. citizens, or like me, like I came here like, you know, on a visa, I have a green card, like I don’t deal with, with the immigration system as much. But to witness that closely to me was a shock. And this was one of the silver linings of my arrest. Like just to go there and shed some light on what’s happening there. To meet with so many incredible individuals from around the world who just wanna have, you know, good future. So, this is what the silver lining, like, to me — for me to be there, also like to help them navigating the immigration system, every — you know, at every turn that — you know, at some points I felt like, you know, like, God has a way or, you know, to send me there to [00:30:00] support others, or actually just to shed light on some of the things that are happening there. But what’s happening behind ICE detention centers should be a stain on U.S. rule of law and due process.

Kamau: And are there other people in there who are like you, who — no charges filed against them?

Mahmoud: So, mostly for them, they’re either undocumented or like their documents were expired, but it’s all by design. Like it’s not because they did not want to be documented.

Kamau: Yeah. Yeah.

Mahmoud: Like there was someone there, who had been in the United States for over 20 years, I think for 27 years. His two daughters are U.S. citizens who are working like in the U.S. government, and he was deported just because, you know.

Kamau: Documents.

Mahmoud: Documents and — and this is just one of the story, but like all the stories are the same. [00:31:00] And just to make sure, like, because people, you know, when they hear like “immigration enforcement,” they get like, “oh, but we have to enforce immigration.” Yes, you can, but like you have to fix the system.

Kamau: And recently — and it’s tied into the government, the Trump administration recently wanted to end birthright citizenship, which is another way to create more undocumented people.

Mahmoud: Absolutely.

Kamau: And luckily the ACLU stood up to that.

Mahmoud: Yeah.

Kamau: This question, feel free not to answer. I just can’t help but wonder, I imagine you think about like when things settle down or when you get to — do you stay here, in this country?

Mahmoud: Yeah, I — that’s why I’m fighting right now. Like I’m fighting to make America better. So, that I can live here, raise my children in this country, where they can live in equality, peace, dignity, and prosperity with everyone in this country, regardless of their background.

Kamau: These are some lightning round questions I’m gonna ask you. I’m gonna add an extra one in for me. [00:32:00] What’s next for your activism?

Mahmoud: Um, I don’t know what are my next steps, to be honest. I’m still trying to comprehend where I am right now. But the core thing is I would remain committed to opposing oppression and suppression and opposing a genocide. So, this is the core thing. So, I definitely will continue doing that. Wherever I can and in any ways that I can do that. So — but still like I’m — again, like, you know, I don’t know it all.

Kamau: Three — it’s been three weeks. The news cycle moves so fast. I was like, you’ve been out for a year now. It’s been three weeks. I’m sorry.

Mahmoud: No, I don’t know it all. And yeah, I just wanna continue like really advocating for the rights of those marginalized in this country, whether they’re immigrants and those like targeted for their political [00:33:00] speech.

Kamau: What are your hopes for the next generation? As a dad, I have three daughters. As I think about the next generation, a lot. As you said, I got the 14-year-old out here who thinks she’s this generation already, but she — what are your hopes in that — including your son Deen — what are your hopes for the next generation?

Mahmoud: My hope’s that they wouldn’t have to deal with the things that I’m dealing with right now.

Kamau: Amen.

Mahmoud: That they wouldn’t need to protest in the street just to get their basic rights. I hope that they will have it, like, by then.

Kamau: Yeah.

Mahmoud: But also, I hope that we will, at least, like give — not — I wouldn’t say give, like, at least pass on some moral clarity. Even if the world is not perfect, but just to them to know like the moral clarity of where — of a world that we all want to live in. Again, regardless of our background and of who we are. Just [00:34:00] like, we’re humans, like let’s do that.

Kamau: Yeah, let’s be — we’re all humans. Can we just agree that we should be able to be our human selves? What’s the best thing about being a dad?

Mahmoud: The best thing about being a dad? Ah, there’s a lot of good things.

Kamau: I see — that’s why let’s name it down to one.

Mahmoud: Oh, now we have an excuse to cancel anything. [laughs]

Kamau: Yes! Yes. You — that — you got the right answer. I didn’t know there was the right answer until you said that. “The reason I can’t come — I, you know, love to — I’d love to come help you move on Sunday morning. Ah, I’d love to. I’d love to come see — I’d love to come see your slideshow at your house, but, ah.”

Mahmoud: [laughs] But I think the thing is just, to me, like when Deen and Noor and I are just, like, hanging out — like hanging around like on the bed, like doing nothing. And him, like whether he’s smiling or just cooing to us, that feels like the world to me.

Kamau: That’s good — yeah that’s — that is probably number two behind [00:35:00] being able to cancel anything. [laughs]

Mahmoud: [laughs]

Kamau: I just — that — I — you — that’s a lifelong thing. No matter how old your kids are, you’d be like, “Ah, my 14-year-old, I gotta cancel. Ah.”

Mahmoud: Yeah. The third thing is just like, now you — which, and unfortunately, like that was something I was looking forward to, is just to walk with him, like as an excuse to walk.

Kamau: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Mahmoud: You know, like have the stroller and just like, go and talk, like things that you don’t wanna discuss with them with anyone else. Just with someone who’s — yeah. Not necessarily reacting to you, so you can just like say whatever you want.

Kamau: Who’s funnier? Me or Ramy? Just kidding. Just kidding. [laughs] Just kidding. I’m just kidding. So, this is the last one. We like to give people homework on here, on this show.

Mahmoud: [laughs] Okay.

Kamau: Is there one thing folks can do, that you would say you want people who are listening to this to do? Or one thing you want them to remember from this conversation?

Mahmoud: So, I definitely want them to [00:36:00] remember that injustice against any one of us is injustice against everyone, and we have to be in solidarity regardless of what we think about like others’ opinion.

Kamau: Well, thank you for this. It’s really been great.

Mahmoud: Thanks for having me.

Kamau: I got you out of the house for an hour. [laughs]

Mahmoud: [laughs]

Kamau: So, enjoy your time away, but also enjoy time with Deen.

Mahmoud: Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you.

Kamau: Appreciate you, brother. Thank you.

Kamau: Thanks again to our guest, Mahmoud Khalil and to the New York Civil Liberties Union, aka NYCLU, who collaborated with us on this episode. They also have their own podcast called Rights This Way, where they discuss the legal and policy implications of some of the most important issues facing New York State. Go listen and subscribe. You’re already in your own podcast app right now, so you don’t have to go nowhere. Just do it right now.

Also, if this episode inspires you, you can head to ACLU.org and donate. [00:37:00] And since you’re in a donating mood, donate to NYCLU, CCR, and CLEAR. Getting Mahmoud home safe was a family affair, a team sport, and a massive group effort that wouldn’t have been possible without all these folks and more. It’s because of your support that organizations like these can advocate for clients like Mahmoud, and there are many more clients like Mahmoud.

If we’ve learned anything together, it’s that there’s a lot of advocacy work left to do, and it takes all of us. Remember we said that during the podcast, it’s all of us pointing at each other to get it all done.

Thanks to you for listening. And remember friends: friends help friends stay in the fight. Join us! Until next time, I’m your host, W. Kamau Bell. At Liberty is a production of the ACLU. Our senior executive producer is Sam Riddell. This episode was executive produced by the ACLU’s Jessica Herman Weitz, and Who Knows Best Productions’ me [W. Kamau Bell], Kelly Rafferty, PhD, [00:38:00] and Melissa Hudson Bell, PhD.

This show is edited and produced by Erica Getto and Myrriah Gossett for Good Get. Special thanks this week to Gotham Production Studios who allowed us to record the interview here.

Simon: Thank you for listening. You can find out more about everything we talked about today by visiting nyclu.org and you can follow us at NYCU on Instagram. Twitter and Facebook. If you have questions or comments about Rights This Way, you can email us at podcast@nyclu.org. Until next time, I’m Simon McCormack. Thank you for fighting for a fair New York.