Why Prison Visits Make Families Stronger and Communities Safer

Resources

Tell Hochul to sign the bills we discuss on this episode

Take action to protect in-person visits and find resources for children of incarcerated parents

Osborne Association serves individuals, families, and communities impacted by the criminal legal system

Learn more about the prison conditions legislation we mention

Transcript

Bernadette: [00:00:00] Almost half of Americans at this point have had an immediate family member who has been incarcerated in a prison or jail.

Elijah: You could go all the way over there, upstate two hours, three hours, four hour drive. Sometimes you might get turned away and that hurts to have gone through all that work, and you were still denied a visit.

Simon: This is Rights This Way, a podcast from the New York Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU of New York State. I’m Simon McCormack, Editorial Manager at the NYCLU, and your host for this podcast, your best listen for the civil rights and liberties issues that impact New Yorkers most. The impact of a person’s incarceration reaches far beyond the confines of their cell. Children lose parents. Families lose a breadwinner and struggle to meet their needs. Businesses lose workers. Humane treatment that respects the rights and dignity of incarcerated people and prepares them to reenter society benefits both incarcerated people and their communities. [00:01:00] On this episode, we speak to a New Yorker with personal experience visiting a family member who is incarcerated. He’ll explain why in-person visits are so important and why a bill recently passed by the state legislature would help families like his. And we’ll also talk to an NYCLU expert about this legislation and several other bills designed to improve conditions for incarcerated New Yorkers and their loved ones.

We’ll get to all this in just a moment, but first I’d like to ask you to please download, rate, review, and subscribe to Rights This Way. It will help more people find this podcast. And now I’m joined by two guests. Elijah Rodriguez is an alumni of Osborne’s Youth Action Council, which is a group of young people who advocate for policies that support children whose parents are involved in the criminal legal system. And Bernadette Rabuy is a NYCLU senior policy council. Elijah, Bernadette, welcome to Rights This Way.

Bernadette: Thanks for having us.

Elijah: Of course. [00:02:00] It’s a pleasure to be here.

Simon: Amazing. Well, yes, we’re very happy to have you. And Bernadette, I want to start with you. The state legislature passed a bill this year that’s now awaiting Governor Hochul’s signature. It’s called the Protect In-Person Visits Bill. Can you talk about that bill, what it does and why it’s important?

Bernadette: Yes, absolutely. So, Protect In-Person Visits improves correctional visiting in a few different ways. One thing that it does is actually require that both state prisons and local jails have visiting hours that are either on the weekend or in the evening, so after 6 PM. It also requires that visiting be of a sufficient duration, and for local jails specifically, that is a minimum of at least one hour. [00:03:00] As you might guess, this comes from the name, Protect In-Person Visits. Another thing the bill does is actually require that if a facility is using video calls, that must be a supplement to in-person visits and not replace in-person visits. I’m not aware of that being an issue in New York State, but we have researched that throughout the country there are local jails that have replaced in-person visits with video calls. One more thing the bill does is also require a published overcrowding policy that takes into account a lot of different factors such as how long it’s been since a visitor has been able to visit a facility, how long the visitor traveled in order to get there, and some other factors.

So visiting is extremely important. [00:04:00] It has so many benefits, benefits for the person who’s being visited, for the safety of facilities, and then also for our communities for when people are released from their incarceration. It improves health and well-being. It allows people to stay connected with their family members, which also makes re-entry easier for people when they are released from prison or jail. And we know that most people who are incarcerated will be released at some point in time and re-enter our communities, be reunited with their families. And this is also an issue that impacts a lot of people. Our country has an addiction to mass incarceration and almost half of Americans at this point have had an immediate family member who has been incarcerated in a prison or jail. So it would be really impactful for this bill to be signed by the governor.

[00:05:00] And I want to talk a little bit about where we think it would be most beneficial. And we think that would be in local jails specifically. That’s because local jail visiting policies are all over the place. Oftentimes they don’t have more than a couple hours of visiting available to people per week. So this is really an opportunity to require a certain level of visiting that is possible for local jails throughout the state. And that’s also beneficial because sometimes, not always the case, but sometimes when someone is detained in a local jail is when they might be closer to their support network and so it might actually be a little bit easier for their loved ones to visit them. So you know, it’s a really important bill that we hope will get signed.

Simon: Absolutely. [00:06:00] And Elijah, can you talk about how you became an advocate for this bill?

Elijah: I became an advocate for the Protect In-Person Visiting Bill because as someone who’s had to spend the majority of their childhood with an incarcerated parent, I knew that I had the firsthand experience. I had the motivation to speak out to be able to help advocate on behalf of those who might not be too comfortable sharing the unfortunate experiences that they might’ve had with having to deal with whether it be a parent incarcerated or anyone else in their family who might’ve been incarcerated. So having gone through that unfortunate circumstance, I figured that it was the right thing to do, not just for myself, but to ensure that other people don’t have to go through the same unfortunate experience, to be an advocate, to ensure that others in the future and even hopefully in the soon future will be able to have the ability to stay in contact with their loved ones.

Simon: And it was your stepfather who was incarcerated, is that right?

Elijah: Yes, it was my stepfather.

Simon: Okay. And take us through what it actually takes to visit a loved one in prison. What hoops did they make you jump through?

Elijah: [00:07:00] It was a very hard journey, not just for me, but also for my stepfather because as I’ll explain soon, you could go all the way over there upstate two hours, three hours, four hour drive, whether it be you driving yourself or taking a bus up there, sometimes you might get turned away and that hurts, to have gone through all that work and you were still denied a visit. Now, I don’t want to say it as a religious practice, but it was very set into our mental schedules, that every Saturday was set aside to always go upstate and visit my stepfather. My mother, I, and my two siblings, we would either cramp in a car that could barely limp its way up to highway speeds or we’d have to wake up two in the morning on Saturday and meet with a bunch of other family members who were going to head upstate for one thing in mind, to be able to visit their loved ones that were incarcerated.

Simon: And 2:00 AM was when you had to do that?

Elijah: 2:00 AM was those coach liners, maybe even earlier.

Simon: Okay. [00:08:00] And why was it so important? And I want to talk about your own personal experience, but why it was important for you, but first I just want to talk about why it was important for your stepfather to be able to see you on a regular basis.

Elijah: Well, as the youngest in the family, I still had a lot to come at the time when I was visiting my stepfather and so did my siblings. So while he might not have been able to have been present in the household, being able to see us grow and share the stories of what we might’ve been up to in school, or where our hobbies are progressing, or maybe interests we might take up in the future, it let us be able to have that bond and strengthen that relationship of understanding that this is our stepfather and even though he might not be able to be with us, we could still treat him as that.

Simon: Yeah, totally. And for you, what were the feelings that would go through you when you visit him and why was it so critical for you?

Elijah: Well, being able to be there with my stepfather allowed me to be able to do plenty of more things that I would have not been able to do if it were a television call or if it was just a phone call. [00:09:00] Being able to be there with my stepfather in numerous different ways of which I’ll explain soon, it was able to make me feel like I was a part of his life and make him feel like he was really there with me, even if it was just a couple hours of the week on a Saturday.

Simon: Totally. And what were those ways?

Elijah: So, the main way would be, as I had mentioned, the Saturday visits. We would, I believe, try our best to get there at 10 o’clock so we would be able to have some hours till about 2:30. And just having those hours made it feel like he was always there in the house, that I always had him to come home to when I was home from school. There were so many experiences that I would not have been able to have if it weren’t for being able to visit with him in person. I remember the vending machine snacks, snacks you had never heard of or ever seen anywhere else. And unfortunately, guilty pleasure, they tasted good, but it was able to let me learn the kind of things that my stepfather liked. [00:10:00] I always knew whenever I had any of my allowance, I would always go to the vending machine and I’d surprise him, get a bag of Doritos and I’d get a bag of the shortbread cookies with the raspberry jam in the center. Those were his favorite.

And if I had a little extra money to be able to spend, I would try and get him a bottle of Snapple too. He loved them Snapples. But on the topic of that Snapple bottle, we saw it as an opportunity to be able to connect with each other some more. So once we finished drinking all the juice that was in that Snapple bottle, we would get some paper towels and we kind of put just a little bit of water in the bottle so that way it would soak up into the paper towel and then we would go out to the yard and we would find a nice space that we wouldn’t be in the way of anyone. And he would teach me how to catch the bottle like it was a football. So he would try and teach me how to play football and it was great.

[00:11:00] And I remember all the scars I’ve gotten from trying to race my stepfather and not having the best footing, I end up falling over, but we still get back up and we play again. And being able to be there and just the same as if it was if we were playing in the park. Playing during that visit, that meant the world to me. That really made it feel like my stepfather was always there with me.

Simon: What’s your go-to Snapple flavor?

Elijah: Ooh, he would always get the peach iced tea and it kind of rubbed onto me because peach is my favorite fruit.

Simon: Okay. Mine is pink lemonade, but-

Elijah: Hey-

Simon: I’m a Snapple head myself.

Elijah: They didn’t have it. It was either that or the strawberry kiwi.

Simon: Okay. Yeah, both good options. So can you talk about how those visits helped your stepfather once he came home to his community? How did those sort of help him get his feet back under him?

Elijah: [00:12:00] Well, being able to visit family members made it so you were always caught up on what was happening in the family, and whether it be word of mouth from us, you also know what was happening outside in the real world. So it was definitely a very strong support method to be able to remain in contact with those who are truly close to you to know what might be going on in your neighborhood, what opportunities there might be when you get out, what’s changed, what hasn’t changed. Being able to stay informed from not just reading a newspaper, but hearing it word of mouth from someone that you love, it helps you understand it a little bit better.

Simon: Yeah, that completely makes sense. And I want to turn to you, Bernadette, because in addition to the Protect In-Person Visits Bill, there’s also another bill related to prison visits that passed the legislature this year. Can you talk about the Tampons Aren’t Contraband Act? And I’ll preface by just saying the things you talked about, Elijah, the struggles to actually get to the facility to visit, just imagining doing all that, going through all those things and then not actually being able to see your loved one.

Bernadette: [00:13:00] Yeah, that’s a perfect segue, I think, to talking about the Tampons Aren’t Contraband Act. First, I want to give a little bit of background that I think is helpful in understanding why we have the situation that we have right now. So in December of 2024, corrections officers beat Robert Brooks in Marcy Correctional to death, and this was unknowingly captured on video. And a few months later, the indictment charging those officers with murder and other criminal charges was unsealed, or at that same time is when corrections officers in New York State went on an illegal strike to distract from the increased scrutiny of the brutality that occurred when Robert Brooks was killed and other instances that have happened over the years.

[00:14:00] During that time, which lasted a few weeks in February and March of 2025, there was a total disruption to the normal state of things in the prison system in New York state, no visits, for example. And I think what maybe is not as widely known is that a lot of those conditions are still impacted even though the strike has been done since March of 2025. I bring all that history up to also explain the use of body scanners in New York state prisons. So when the officers went on strike, one of their demands to end the strike was that body scanners, which emit ionizing radiation, be mandatory for all visitors who are entering a New York state prison, and that was a demand that was met.

[00:15:00] And so what happened is from March of last year to December, more than 2,500 visitors were denied visits due to the body scan processing. So this is the issue that the Tampons Aren’t Contraband Act tries to address, and it does it in two ways. One is that it prohibits state and local correctional facilities from denying a visit because someone is menstruating or has a contraceptive device like an IUD.

And the other thing it does is require that or prohibit rather correctional facilities from requiring a person to remove their tampon or pad or contraceptive in order to have a visit. [00:16:00] So this is really growing from disturbing experiences that we’ve been hearing about of, for example, women having to take out their menstrual product and bleed in front of other visitors, in front of corrections officers, staff, and also just the state of anxiety and fear a lot of people have when they go to visit because they’re worried about the situation, like as Elijah talked about in terms of waking up at 2:00 AM or the hours involved in getting to a facility, they’re worried about doing all of that and then being turned away.

And so what we’re hearing is a lot of visitors are very anxious about going through the body scanner, and many are also choosing to skip visiting when they’re menstruating because they don’t want to risk it. They worry that’s the day that they’re going to get denied. [00:17:00] So the bill would prevent correctional facilities from denying visits due to menstruation and contraceptives.

Simon: We’ll get back to the show in just a moment, but first, if you’ve been enjoying the podcast and want to support our work, check out our merch store at shop.nyclu.org. We have a great selection of items perfect for listeners like you. Our store line lets you tell the world what you think and who you support, whether you’re marching in the streets or arguing about politics with your extended family. And right now you can get 20% off your order with promo code podcast20. That’s 20% off with promo code podcast20 at shop.nyclu.org. Thanks, and now back to the show.

And I want to also note another bill that I know we’re hoping legislators will pass during next year’s session called the Visiting Rights Bill. Bernadette, can you talk about what that bill would do and how it’s different from the one that passed a few months ago?

Bernadette: [00:18:00] Yes, absolutely. So the Protect In-Person Visits and Tampons Aren’t Contraband Act both have been passed by the legislature and are awaiting action from Governor Hochul. Both would be very impactful, but I think are also first steps. The Visiting Rights Bill is really comprehensive visiting legislation to address many different issues that are occurring relating to visiting. So I’m just going to talk about a few highlights. One is that it would require state prisons, local jails, and forensic facilities to have every day visiting available. Another thing that it would prohibit is suspensions of visiting beyond one day, which would be a huge shift in how visiting occurs now. [00:19:00] But that is in recognition of how important visiting is, how beneficial it is for facilities and for communities, for incarcerated people and their loved ones. It also would prohibit the denial of a visit based on a body scan anomaly and require that for body scanner processing, a visit could only be denied if contraband was recovered.

So it does a lot of really amazing things. And just one more also related to body scanners, is it actually requires consultation with a radiologist. So someone who’s actually trained and has expertise in reading these scans to prevent the problem of officers denying visits wrongfully because they can’t interpret these body scans.

Simon: It seems to me very comprehensive legislation.

Bernadette: Yes.

Simon: Yeah. Okay. [00:20:00] So it goes many steps further, I would say, right-

Bernadette: Yeah.

Simon: … Than the bill that passed. Okay. And I want to just turn from In-Person Visits to another bill that passed this year that would deal with another aspect of life for people who are incarcerated, and that’s commissary prices. Bernadette, can you talk about what a commissary is, why it’s important for people who are incarcerated, and what this bill would do to bring down the high prices in commissaries?

Bernadette: Yeah, absolutely. So a commissary is basically a store that’s available to incarcerated people that allows them to purchase items such as a clip-on fan for the summer months or deodorant and other hygiene products, et cetera. What this bill would do is it would cap the price of items in the commissary to only 3% above the purchase price and would also require [00:21:00] transparency in the pricing of the items in the commissary by requiring that those prices be posted online. And this bill is important because, I mean, incarceration, beyond being difficult emotionally on families and communities, is also a financial drain on families and communities. There’s a lot of research out there about it costing loved ones thousands of dollars. Sometimes in New York state, there’s research ranging from $4,000 to $14,000 a year just to support an incarcerated loved one. And those costs are including things like the cost related to visiting, gas, a hotel room if that’s necessary, a bus ticket, also sending money for commissary is another.

[00:22:00] And the way that commissary works is there aren’t options for incarcerated people. So it’s really a captive market, whatever the price is, that’s the only price. So there’s nothing an incarcerated person can do about that. And it’s also important because those who are working inside are earning very little. They’re earning rates like 16 cents an hour. So it’s especially exploitative to be charging prices that are much higher than outside in the community to incarcerated people when they’re making so little if they are working inside and they don’t have options in terms of purchasing these items.

Simon: Totally. And Elijah, I’m curious if you have any experience with dealing with the high prices in the commissary and whether your stepfather had to endure that at all.

Elijah: No. [00:23:00] At the time where I was visiting my stepfather, I fortunately didn’t have to go through having to purchase from third party vendors that are approved to be marketplaces for commissary. I was actually very fortunate enough to have been able to go shopping at a Walmart and we would package our own sort of care package and we would provide that at the visiting area and they would bring that into my stepfather. If you don’t mind, actually, I want to talk about why being able to provide for someone on the inside tastes of home is so important.

Simon: Please.

Elijah: Now, as I just mentioned, taste of home, man. To be able to eat foods that comfort you, that make you feel like you’re there with someone. And while that might’ve been the case for my stepfather, me being able to go into a Walmart with my family and know the things that my [00:24:00] stepfather liked, the kinds of coffee he liked, the kinds of snacks he liked, that seriously made it feel like I was doing groceries with him. And that was great, to be able to be a part of the culinary food that my stepfather would, that he would eat.

Simon: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. As we kind of wrap up, Bernadette, I have one more question for you before I turn it over to both of you. There was a story that went viral this year because a woman in a New York City courtroom was actually forced to give birth in that courtroom while she was shackled. As I said, that story went viral. There was public outrage, and I imagine largely, at least in part because of that outrage, a bill that would make that sort of shackling illegal passed the state legislature this year. Can you talk about that bill and what it would do?

Bernadette: Yeah. So women in prison are considered high risk in terms of their maternal health. It’s associated with postpartum depression. [00:25:00] Incarceration is also associated with low birth weights and preterm birth. Back in 2009, New York first prohibited prisons and jails from using restraints on pregnant people, but there were areas that weren’t covered by that law. So this bill would close that loophole by extending that prohibition to law enforcement custody in general.

So what would that be? That would be, for example, when the police arrest somebody and take them to a police station, maybe they interrogate the person at a police station. It would include a hospital, if the officers are with the person who’s under arrest at a hospital. And there were examples of that where women were shackled while they were in labor in New York state. [00:26:00] So that is one of the key parts of the bill. Another part of the bill is actually prohibiting certain uses of force against pregnant and postpartum people, prohibiting the use of chemical agents, choke holds, tasers, et cetera. And there is a narrow exception, but largely would prohibit the use of those forces on pregnant and postpartum people.

Simon: So my last question is for both of you. I’ll start with you, Elijah, but if people are listening, they want to support these bills, they want to make sure that Hochul signs them into law, what should they do?

Elijah: Well, the first thing that you should do if you’re someone who is impacted, whether it be parental incarceration, or having someone in your family, or even in your friend circle who is incarcerated, always know that you’re not alone. [00:27:00] Always look for communities, always look for resources. And fortunately enough, I myself was able to find those communities that were able to help support me. So you can always visit the See Us, Support Us website, which is www.susu-osborne.org so you can find more resources about parental incarceration and also be sure to visit the Osborne Association for programs, whether it be for youth or whether it be for parents who are all unfortunately impacted by parental incarceration.

Simon: And we will link to that in the show notes as well. Thank you for that.

Bernadette: Yes, I think we will be able to put them in the show notes, but please take action and ask Governor Hochul to sign these really important bills, all the bills that we talked about today, except for the Visiting Rights Bill, which has not passed yet, but hopefully soon. And the other thing is we want to hear from people who have visited and experienced issues with the body scanner. [00:28:00] So if you have an experience to share, please go to the NYCLU website and the contact us page and reach out to legal intake. We would love to hear what your experience was.

Simon: Absolutely. And Elijah, we’ll give you the last word.

Elijah: Now, one more. I did mention the numerous ways that I would visit my stepfather in person. I want to go over one last really important way that I was able to visit my stepfather. Now, throughout the time that I was visiting my stepfather while he was incarcerated, every now and then, a couple times throughout each year, we were given offered the ability to do a family reunion and be a part of the family reunion program. And so what that was is for three days, there would be a housing area within the correctional area that it would just be like a normal house. It would have a TV, have a kitchen, bedrooms, and everything. And that has always resonated very deeply with me because as I said, whether it might have been those [00:29:00] few hours each Saturday that I was able to connect with my stepfather for three whole days, I was able to live in the same household with my stepfather.

There was a massive yard, there was grills, there was sports equipment, and I was seriously able to just live with my stepfather. He was able to teach me how to cook. He taught me how to tie my shoes. And if I had never been able to do the family reunion visiting program, I probably might not have been able to tie my shoes even now. But being able to vacation away from everything else and experience what it would’ve been like to have always been able to have my stepfather there with me day in, day out, it was amazing. And everybody should be able to have the opportunity to, whether it be family reunion programming or in-person visiting, everyone should be able to stay in contact physically and verbally with their loved ones.

Simon: [00:30:00] That’s a great place to leave it. Elijah, Bernadette, thank you so much for coming on Rights This Way.

Elijah: Thank you for having us.

Bernadette: Thank you so much.

Simon: Thank you for listening. You can find more on everything we talked about in this episode by visiting nyclu.org. And you can follow us at NYCLU on YouTube, Instagram, Blue Sky, and Facebook. Until next time, I’m Simon McCormack. Thank you for fighting with us to deliver more liberty and justice to all New Yorkers.